My name wasnt mentioned in the formula. It seems like Moses looking at the Promised Land but not permitted to go there himself. Id just point out that his Mere Christianity is a classic in the most literal sense: it has won world-wide acceptance not only from Evangelical Protestants but from Roman Catholics as well. What I found later was that many of his close friends ditched Anglicanism for Catholicity. Surely this would necessitate a major red warning light on the part of the Council? (As Ive said before, I myself dont actually think thats right. ~from the United States Catholic Catechism for Adults Adult Baptism. Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change (James 1:17). Lukes gospel tells us that the post-resurrection Jesus invited the disciples to touch His body, and ate broiled fish; John recounts His similar invitation to Thomas, and in Acts 10 Peter assures the Caesareans that he and others ate and drank with Him. Peace, I disagree with your statement that The RCC and The EO church are in communion with the Pope. John S.(as well as Nelson) -thanks for straightening me out with regard to which churches are and are not in communion with the Pope. Christ gave us this form, and though by his supernatural power it is of the essence of the sacrament of regeneration, there is no magic involved. I recommend you read this article on the Church fathers and regenerative baptism: https://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/06/the-church-fathers-on-baptismal-regeneration/. Ultimately, John, this will have to remain an open question for you as long as you retain ultimate interpretive authority over the text. It might very well be more difficult to judge of validity with respect to other sacraments, even very difficult in special cases, but such hard to judge cases should not be taken as paradigmatic, and in any event judgment is reserved for a higher court than private speculation. Thus it would seem that the Catholic claim that the Anglican ordinal suffers from a defect of intent must be something other than theological differences on the effects of ordination. The LXX has , so its not even a parallel formula. Thus St. Paul (Acts, xix) commands some disciples at Ephesus to be baptized in Christs name: They were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. In Acts, x, we read that St. Peter ordered others to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. As to Acts 8.14-17, I think youre being a little hasty in your conclusion that it shows that Baptism does not confer the Spirit at all. This is exactly how Catholics baptize when we do not immerse (which is also practiced where possible and appropriate). Partially because the concept is understood in more than one way (is the regeneration spoken of a presumptive and formal regeneration, or a substantial and real one?). After rehearsing all the preliminaries, immerse in running water In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. I dont know that the 1 Sam 25 reference has any particular relevance here. The Churchs Teaching on Salvation and Christs Redemption, Vol. So what your telling me then is that Church Tradition ( capital T) is probably authoritative but on any number of beliefs it can be different therefore probably incorrect and that your interpretation of Scripture is the final authority and is always correct. The rough equivalent of a dissertation in the high middle ages was a commentary on the Sententia. I am no expert, and dont know exactly what further information you are looking for, but I do know that in the case of the priest in Australia it was a defect in *form* that was the problem. Ryan, the whole topic of baptismal regeneration is something which Id like to reserve for another exchange. Sabetti also notes that ministers of the same sect do not everywhere follow a uniform method of baptizing. My wife (not my first wife, obviously :-)) and I are now both Catholics and I cannot begin to say just what a wonderful thing it has been for us to be Catholics. >The fact, by the way, that Lateran IV upheld the basic orthodoxy of the Lombard by no means amounts to subscription to all of his opinions. Of course there were beliefs that were challenged by some throughout the centuries and were ruled on by the Church as heresies. Did he sympathize with distinctively Roman Catholic doctrine? After the concluding phrase (_as C.S. Others would be expected to defend other sectors. (3) Ditto for Pope St Innocent I in 414, explaining why Paulianists converting to Catholicism were to be baptized but Novatianists were not. But surely youd concur that my basic point at that juncture of the argument was right: the Greek Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church arent the same ecclesiastical body. Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Lutherans all use the correct formula. He would almost certainly have a baptism of desire. (Several of the regular contributors to this site are Eastern Catholics.) As youre using the term, what does it mean for something to be inherently plausible? [For whatever you may feel its worth, Id suggest a perusal of B.B. This one question demanded that I address the presuppositional question (Do I really have standing to judge for myself what Scriptures truth is?), the historical question (Is it really credible to think that the Church blew it by the start of the second century?), and obviously the authority questions. As Fred indicated earlier, there is some acceptable variation of the correct form, but this does not extend to the names of the Persons. If yes, then wouldnt this contradict recognizing Protestant baptism as valid? Now you will give word for the one who is being baptized to fast for one or two days beforehand. Fred, I think you make a pretty good case with Marcus Borg. Neither of them strikes me as prima facie plausible, for at the center of both sets of claims is the fundamental claim that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity became incarnatea statement that involves two mysteries that no created intellect can fully comprehend, much less find prima facie plausible. My wife left me six years later. Immersion in running water Brother, I suggest that you ask your priest or bishop so that you may be at peace. A different set of hermeneutical lenses, and youre off to the races. The fact that you do not consider Sacred Tradition to be as authoritative as the word of God does not make it any less so. But mainly because I think things are complicated enough in the exchange already! >Peter Lombard wrote commentaries on the Psalms and the Pauline epistles; however, his most famous work by far was Libri Quatuor Sententiarum, or the Four Books of Sentences, which became the standard textbook of theology at the medieval universities. The Catechism of the Council of Trent informs us: Now since we said above, when treating of the Sacraments in general, that every Sacrament consists of matter and form, it is therefore necessary that pastors point out what constitutes each of these in Baptism. I am just glad to have a Church that is able to give answers. As I indicated in my response to JJ, the form of the sacrament involves more than the shape and sound of the words, but also semantics, or meaning. Baptism removes all penalty of sin, so whoever is validly baptized is saved. Unless I simply overlooked it in an earlier comment, your stipulation of belief in biblical inerrancy for putative believers who deny the Virgin Birth and the Bodily Resurrection is new, and rather changes the face of our debate, for biblical inerrancy and (a much stickier issue) the precise meaning of inerrancy, are not things we know from the text of the Bible itself, but from the witness of the Church (obviously, this is especially the case for the New Testament, which didnt take its final shape until the fourth century). He gives somewhat more strained explanations of how one might be implying the whole Trinity by mentioning only the Father or the Holy Spirit. (The West uses, I baptize thee in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; the East uses, The servant of God N. is baptized in the Name of) In all such cases that Im aware of the criteria were (1) proper matter is washing in water and (2) Trinitarian form. There are a number of particular churchesthe Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, and the Assyrian Church of the Eastwho are not in communion with Rome (the Greek Orthodox Church is one of the Eastern Orthodox churches). Baptism and Christian Initiation | USCCB That is, if the latter formula was used in a context of Trinitarian faith. [I realize that, as you say, the Orthodox churches are in communion with Rome. Thus, Trinitarian orthodoxy enters into the equation in a way that orthodoxy on the effects of baptism does not; i.e., valid baptism must be Trinitarian (in more than a nominal sense), but it need not be accompanied by profession of, or belief in, baptismal regeneration. The fact that C.S. By Dr. Philipp W. Rosemann. That is the upshot of setting up ones own views against those of the Church: we are left with no principled basis for identifying revealed truth. Shortly after this I became a Baptist, and then over the next three years Reformed. Rather, His emphasis is on the _significance_ of what is done: that is, to receive Christian baptism -no matter which specific formula is enunciated- is to be incorporated into the name of the Divine Trinity. Why does the Church recognize Protestant baptism if - Catholic Answers (9) In 866, in the same document, Pope St Nicholas I seems first to insist solely on the Trinitarian formula, then to allow for the single invocation of Christ. Perhaps they have received baptism of desire. Acts 10, 38) (ibid.). But maybe St Thomas was right. But I can make a few relevant points which, at the very least, sum up my position accurately. If the Church teaches very unequivocally that for the valid conferring of the sacraments, the minister must have the intention of doing at least what the Church does and I know for a solid fact that the minister of my baptism specifically repudiated not just at least, but everything the Catholic Church does in baptism, what then? Whether baptism so conferred is doubtful if the aforesaid declaration was not expressly made immediately before the conferring of baptism, but had often been asserted by the minister, and the same doctrine was openly preached in that sect? 4, d. 3). First, if you examine Acts 8:14-17, youll see that baptism does not, in and of itself, confer the gift of the Holy Spirit (no matter what formula is used!). I did use the word inerrant in #38, but not only was it in passing, it was in a completely different context (explaining the relationship between Scripture and Tradition). The sentence you mention doesnt assume anything more than what is pretty clear from Acts 19. The reason I think my comments on Eastern Orthodoxy are relevant is because your position, as I understand it, is that Christian Tradition speaks with one voice. Turning to Hugh of St Victor, when he holds out the possibility of valid baptism in the name of Christ only, he is entertaining the possibility of someone baptizing through ignorance without consciousness of error, not keeping the form of these words [the Trinitarian formula], yet with full [Trinitarian] faith (de sacramentis 2.6.2).
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